Question: How is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture possible?

• Bob,

• I notice that you hold to the "Pre-Trib" position. If you have the time, I am interested in how you view 1Thess 4 in light of Rev 20. Specifically, if the dead in Christ are raised first, and the first (mass or great) resurrection occurs AFTER the Trib and at the START of the 1000 years (Rev20), how is a Pre-Trib possible? Obviously I take Rev20:6 to refer to those same "fallen asleep" in 1Thess4:15-16. And verse 16 plainly states the "rapture" will be NOISY, more in line with Matt24:31 (and 1Cor15:52 and Rev11:15). It is interesting to me that people have so many different "takes" on theology. Why, if we serve the same Spirit? Those who take Revelation as linear, attempt to read a sequence of events; yet clearly in chapter 11, especially from verses 18-19 (which tell of the final judgement) is "repetitive narrative", just like the supposedly "double-creation" in Genesis; which is not two separate events but the same, told twice... What is your position on "loss-of-salvation-from-not-abiding-in-Christ"? Than you again, if you do not have time to answer the theology questions, that's fine. God bless you! --jp

Answer: (click here to view the answer)

1. John,

2. Thanks for your questions. The basic answer to your questions is the nature of the mystery that God revealed to Paul. Paul wrote about Israel long after the church which is His body started. He wrote in Romans 11:25-29: For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

3. Because the dispensation we are in is a mystery, the next event that will occur in God’s prophetic program is the rapture of the body of Christ. This rapture of the mystery body, of course, is itself a mystery. That would mean that the rapture is not counted in the resurrections of prophecy.

4. 2 Th 2:1-4 “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ is now present. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure [All bold print is my emphasis.] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.” That will start a sequence of many prophetic events. The rapture is before the tribulation because nothing in this dispensation of the mystery is prophesied. Ephesians 3:8,9 show us that: “To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.”

5. That is what we call the nature of the mystery. After the rapture, the tribulation will come next with the first resurrection coming at its end. Israel was identified as the people of the tribulation by Daniel (Dan 9:24; 10:14; 12:1). Our Lord Jesus Christ mentioned Daniel’s abomination of desolation (Dan 9:27; 11:31) in the future tribulation’s setting (Mat 24:15-21). One purpose of the tribulation will be to purify Israel for her kingdom reign (Dan 9:24; Zec 13:9). That’s why Jeremiah 30:7 says the tribulation is precisely called a time of tribulation for Jacob. Since the mystery has nothing to do with Israel, the tribulation, which is specifically designated for Israel, is irrelevant, that is, has nothing to do with the church which is His body.

6. The nature of the mystery shows us that the body of Christ is never referred to in prophecy prior to Paul’s conversion. Therefore, I believe the events that occur and their relation to the tribulation and the millennium are prophecy about the people in the tribulation and cannot refer to the body of Christ. So, prophecy about the day of the Lord could not apply to the body of Christ. Further, prophecy about the people under the wrath of God in the tribulation, could not apply to the body of Christ.

7. Therefore, the rapture, since it only applies to the body of Christ, must take place prior to the time of Jacob’s trouble, the tribulation, which follows the rapture for the next seven years. The great and awesome day of the Lord will follow the tribulation. This is what is normally called the second coming. I will quote two passages to show this. Acts 2:20 “The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.” Mat 24:29,30 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

8. Next, the judgment of the nations takes place: Mat 25:31,32 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

9. The millennial reign of Christ begins after that judgment: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

10. Then Satan is loosed after the thousand year reign of Christ: Rev 20:7-9 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

11. Then the great white throne judgment takes place: Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

12. Then the new heavens and earth are established. And they, not us, reign forever. Rev 21:1,3,27; 22:5 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. . . . 3 Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. . . . 27 only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. 22:5 And they shall reign forever and ever.

13. Our rapture was not revealed in prophecy. It was only revealed to Paul.

14. Until the Shout,

15. Bob Hill

• Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:24 PM

1. Doulos,
2. When Christ the Lord returns, it appears that His feet will stand on the
3. Mount of Olives. It will be a momentous day. First, we read the description
4. of the coming of Messiah and His subjugation of His enemies. It all begins
5. when "His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives." This was the same place
6. from which He ascended in Acts 1:11,12.
7. Zechariah 14:1-21 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will
8. be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle
9. against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women
10. ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the
11. people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And
12. fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in
13. that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem
14. on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to
15. west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the
16. north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My
17. mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall
18. flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
19. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come
20. to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7
21. It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord- Neither day nor night. But
22. at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it
23. shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward
24. the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and
25. winter it shall occur. 9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In
26. that day it shall be- "The Lord is one," And His name one. 10 All the land
27. shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem.
28. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin's Gate
29. to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of
30. Hananeel to the king's winepresses. 11 The people shall dwell in it; And no
31. longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely
32. inhabited. 12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike
33. all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve
34. while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
35. And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. 13 It shall come to pass
36. in that day That a great panic from the Lord will be among them. Everyone
37. will seize the hand of his neighbor, And raise his hand against his neighbor
38. 's hand; 14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the
39. surrounding nations Shall be gathered together: Gold, silver, and apparel in
40. great abundance. 15 Such also shall be the plague On the horse and the mule,
41. On the camel and the donkey, And on all the cattle that will be in those
42. camps. So shall this plague be. 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone
43. who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from
44. year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast
45. of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the
46. earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on
47. them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and
48. enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which
49. the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of
50. Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of
51. all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 20 In
52. that day "HOLINESS TO THE LORD" shall be engraved on the bells of the
53. horses. The pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the
54. altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the
55. Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in
56. them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the
57. Lord of hosts.
58. This event will take place at the end of the tribulation. Of course, the
59. rapture will take place before the tribulation even starts.
60. In Christ,
61. Bob

• From: cURTIS
• Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 3:14 AM
• To: Bob Hill
• Questions: 2 Th 2:3-"The apostasia"-last time, I will stop bothering you..
• Sir, I see that you are definitley more scholarly that many I've spoken with. I, on account of that, give you a great ammount of respect. However, there are some questions thaat naturaly come to mind when one considers your arguments.
• (1) Did Paul write the first epistle to the Thessalonians when he was with them? If he did not (which of course is obvious) why would he be refering to the departure of 1st Thess. iv. in his second epistle? No, he wasn't refering to his first epistle in his second, for it was "when I was yet with you", whilst his first epistle was written from Corinth.
• (2) How does "away from stance" imply a simple departure? To me it seems, even with such a litteral interpretation, that "away from stance/postition" means that some will leave their stance/position with regards to their religious professions. Considering the fact that Paul spoke colloquial greek, it seems clear that much of his greek learning was from heavily influenced by the LXX.
• (3) Still, the pre-trib. postition depends heavily on the supposed fact that the "Day of the Lord", and the "Day of Christ" are two different events. If this is so, then, the "Day of the Lord Jesus" must be a total brain tease. But, the Day of Christ is the same day when He is manifested, and the whole sky it lighted:-
• Luke xvii. 24. "For just as the lightning which flashes out of the [one part] under heaven shines to the [other part] under heaven, so the Son of Man will be in His day."
• I do not believe that you will find any Scripture that would suggest that the "Day of the Lord" (Yom Yahweh), and the "Day of Christ" are different. Compare "That day", "Day of the Lord Jesus", "His day", "in the day", "the last day." &c. Would you really consider the time when the antichrist has his reign as the Day of Yahweh? It's more like the day of the satan.
• (4) John vi. says straight out that we will be raised at the last day.
• (5) The mystery of 1 Cor. 15:51 isn't that we are to be raptured, the mystery was that not all will be dead when this happens.
• Last but not least, consider the 50th Psalm, and notice that the same day when Christ comes to take vengence, that the saints are gathered back..

1. Curtis,
2. You are not bothering me. I appreciate your questions. They are sincere and thoughtful. I want to respond to them by number.
3. (1) Did Paul write the first epistle to the Thessalonians when he was with them? If he did not (which of course is obvious) why would he be refering to the departure of 1st Thess. iv. in his second epistle? No, he wasn't refering to his first epistle in his second, for it was "when I was yet with you", whilst his first epistle was written from Corinth.

4. You are right. Paul did write both of his epistles to the Thessalonians from Corinth. However, he was referring to the time when he was with them in Acts 17:1-9. He left in 17:10. “Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas. 5 But the Jews who were not persuaded, becoming envious, took some of the evil men from the marketplace, and gathering a mob, set all the city in an uproar and attacked the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. 6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some brethren to the rulers of the city, crying out, “These who have turned the world upside down have come here too. 7 “Jason has harbored them, and these are all acting contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king-Jesus.” 8 And they troubled the crowd and the rulers of the city when they heard these things. 9 So when they had taken security from Jason and the rest, they let them go. 10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea.”

5. At that time, he apparently taught them about the rapture and the day of the Lord. But, as you know, he had to leave in a hurry, at night. He had not seen them between his visit to them in Acts 17 and the time he wrote his 2 letters to them. He sent Timothy and Silas back to see how things were going, but he was afraid that they had been troubled. Then, he heard from Timothy and Silas and was energized by what he heard. Then he began testifying zealously again according to Acts 18:5 “When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ.”

6. He had also heard that they needed to know about the rapture and other eschatology. He wrote about that in his first letter to them. Then he found out that they were even more confused, thinking that the day of Christ or the day of the Lord was present [I believe the day of Christ and the day of the Lord mean the same thing.]. That’s what he wrote in 2 Th 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ (is now present, ejnevsthken). [1. in past tenses be present, have come ejnevsthken hJ hJmevra tou` kurivou the day of the Lord has come 2 Th 2:2 oJ kairo;" oJ ejnesthkwv" the present time (Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979.) I edited out material that didn’t pertain to our subject.]

7. (2) How does "away from stance" imply a simple departure? To me it seems, even with such a litteral interpretation, that "away from stance/postition" means that some will leave their stance/position with regards to their religious professions. Considering the fact that Paul spoke colloquial greek, it seems clear that much of his greek learning was from heavily influenced by the LXX.
8. Curtis,
9. Certainly, Paul was greatly influenced biblically by the LXX. But, he was raised in a Roman city and was a Roman citizen. Secular Greek was the language he spoke as well as Aramaic. He also had studied under Gamaliel, so he also knew Hebrew well. Curtis, I answered this idea “that ‘away from stance/postition’ means that some will leave their stance/position with regards to their religious professions.” You did not respond to that comprehensive answer.
10. (3) Still, the pre-trib. postition depends heavily on the supposed fact that the "Day of the Lord", and the "Day of Christ" are two different events. If this is so, then, the "Day of the Lord Jesus" must be a total brain tease. But, the Day of Christ is the same day when He is manifested, and the whole sky it lighted:-
11. Curtis,
12. I agree with you. I believe these two statements are the same: "Day of the Lord", and the "Day of Christ". That is why they were so shook up. They thought the day of the Lord had come upon them and they had not been raptured. Paul tells them the day of the Lord/Christ had not come because the rapture/apostasia had to come first, then the man of sin had to be revealed. That would take place at the beginning of the tribulation.
13. (4) John vi. says straight out that we will be raised at the last day.
14. Curtis,

15. Christ did say in John 6:37-40 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” But at that time He was a minister only to the house of Israel. He said in Mat 15:24, “But He answered and said, ‘I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.’” Later when God inspired Paul to write Rom 15:8, “Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a minister of circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers [Israel].

16. In contrast, the resurrected and ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave Paul a new dispensation that was never mentioned before. It was called the mystery. This one thing will help you understand these questions. I call this thing, the nature of the mystery. Let us put it another way. The dispensation of the mystery, as revealed in Ephesians 3, is the most important concept to comprehend in order to understand the chronology of the rapture and the tribulation. The mystery was never made known before it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. Ephesians 3:9 shows that explicitly. Paul said he was given a commission “to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.”

17. We see again in 1 Co 2:7 that this mystery was hidden: “The hidden wisdom of God in a mystery was ordained before the ages for our glory.” Put another way, it “was kept secret in age times” (Rom 16:25,26). Finally, it was “hidden from ages and from generations” (Col 1:26). What characteristic of the mystery do we see from these scriptures? What is the nature of the mystery? More than anything else, it was a secret, hidden in God from ages and generations. It was never written about anywhere in God’s word until it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. In fact it says in Eph 3:8,9, that Paul was given the grace that “I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.”

18. The word, unsearchable, ajnexicnivasto" anexichneevastos, is something “that cannot be searched out, that cannot be comprehended.” This word occurs only twice in the New Testament. In Rom 11:33, it shows that God’s ways cannot be searched out. Since Paul says he was given the grace of preaching this unsearchable grace, it must mean it could not be traced anywhere in the Scripture before it was given to him. The context of Eph 3:8,9 shows this to be true. “To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable (ajnexicnivaston) riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.”

19. That means no prophecy made before Paul’s salvation concerns the mystery. In other words, all prophecy made before Paul received the mystery is silent about the people and things of the mystery. That is the nature of the mystery. Believers during the time the dispensation of the mystery is in place are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. They become part of something brand new. Jews and Gentiles who believe become heirs together. They are baptized into the body of Christ. They become partakers together in becoming one new man, a new creation (2 Co 5:17; Gal 6:15; Eph 2:14-16; Col 1:18-22). There was nothing written about them in the prophetic Scriptures, and there was nothing written in John about the body of christ, before Paul’s conversion. God called this new creation, the body of Christ. Again, it is made up of Jews and Gentiles as joint-heirs and joint-partakers.

20. According to the content of this mystery, God broke down the discriminatory barriers. This truth causes us to make a strong distinction between Israel and the church which is His body. Israel was identified as the people of the tribulation by Daniel.

21. (5) The mystery of 1 Cor. 15:51 isn't that we are to be raptured, the mystery was that not all will be dead when this happens.

22. Curtis, I’m sorry I have to disagree with you again, but here’s why I have to. The passage about the rapture that occurs in 1 Co 15:51-54 is not a mystery about “not all will be dead when this happens”. Here’s the passage: “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up in victory.’”

23. This whole event is called a mystery, something hid in God, a secret. The secret in 1 Co 15:51,52 is not the concept that some will not see death, for our Lord expresses this idea clearly in John 11:25-26: “He who believes in Me will live even if he dies, but he who lives and believes in Me will never die.” The secret is the event itself.

24. Also, the second coming, including the gathering of the elect, is well prophesied in Mat 24: 29-31: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

25. This event was no mystery to Paul. Let me again give the precise definition of “mystery”. A musthvrion, mystery, is not an ambiguous or mystical revelation but an unrevealed truth. The LXX of Dan 2:19 employs musthvrion to render the Persian (Aramaic) raz, “secret”, in reference to Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. Daniel did not receive from Nebuchadnezzar a vague or shadowy revelation of the dream. Rather, until the God of heaven revealed the secret to His prophet, the content of the dream was completely concealed to him. Likewise, the secret of the rapture was not the subject of ambiguous or shadowy revelation before Paul, but was concealed in God. This mystery was revealed to Paul early in his ministry, and Paul discusses the rapture in his earliest epistles, Galatians and Thessalonians. Further, the musthvrion of Ephesians is also discussed in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Since the rapture is a musthvrion, the disclosure of the church’s hope prior to the revelation of the secret church through Paul is also a mystery - not revealed.

26. God did not form the body of Christ by bringing believing Gentiles into the covenant blessings of His people, Israel. He did not bring Gentiles into equality with Jews, but equalized the two groups by concluding Israel in the same state of unbelief as the Gentiles because of her disobedience. The following Scripture from Rom 9:31-10:3; 11:32, establishes this: “But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

27. Therefore, the church is an entirely new creation (Eph 2:15). Since the church was formed only after Israel was removed from her position of privilege, the body of Christ cannot be the result of including the Gentile believers in Israel’s blessings. The body of Christ is not an extension of Israel’s privileged status to the Gentiles. Likewise, the ministry of Paul, to whom the truth of the body of Christ was entrusted, was not an extension of the circumcision apostles’ commission. Paul’s gospel of grace and his apostleship to the Gentiles represented a new course of divine action (Gal 1:1, 11-12; 2:7-9). Therefore, a tribulation specifically applied to Israel has nothing to do with the church which is His body.

28. Last but not least, consider the 50th Psalm, and notice that the same day when Christ comes to take vengence, that the saints are gathered back..

29. Curtis,

30. God is talking about Israel over and over in that Psalm. The rapture is for the body of Christ.

31. In Christ,

32. Bob

Question: Questions on the pre-trib rapture

• From: Curtis G. 

• Friday, January 19, 2001

• Question: Pre-trib rapture.

• Hi Bob, love your sight, you are very gifted.. I have some questions concering the timing of our gathering to Christ.

• 1)   The Lord said that He'd resurrect believers "at the last day"-John vi. 39, 40, 44, 54. "The last day" was an old Rabbinic term to describe the day in which Messiah comes to set up His earthly Kingdom. The obvious literal interpretation to me is that we are to be resurrected when the Lord's second advent occurs. In my opinion, this is synonymous with the gathering of the elect of Matt. xxiv. 29-31. How do you interpret this?

• 2)   According to Luke xvii. Lot was rescued "the same day" that the fire and brim stone was to be hurled down upon Sodom, and "thus shall it be in the day that the Son of Man is revealed." To me this would seem that we are to be "raptured" the same day when the Lord comes in flaming fires of vengence (cf. II Thess. i. 7-10). For the fire and brimstone cannot refer to the tribulation, for "thus shall it be" when the Lord is "revealed."

• 3)   It would seem that the whole pre-trib. theory depends largley on the notion that the day of the Lord, and the day of Christ are distinct events. I would reckon this as an invention of man. For Scripture seemeth not to make any such distinction. Besides, the Scriptures tell that the Day of Christ is the self-same day when the Lord is revealed, and the whole sky is lightened; viz. Luke xvii. 24. What do you make of this argument?

• 4)   II Thessalonians chapter two seems very clear, that we are not gathering to Christ until the apostasy occurs, and the man of lawlessness revealed. Unless you conclude that that which is holding him fast is the Church, but this is an outlandish interpretation. For Paul would not have been so obscure had he meant this (Paul was probobly so obscure so as to protect himself from the gov't he was speaking of), since the subject is Daniel's prophecy, the object should be a human gov't. Most early Church fathers believed this to be Rome. Furthermore, the verb "holds fast" is a transitive verb, and therefore the object must be supplied from the context. How do you read this chapter?

Answer: (click here to view the answer)

1. Dear Curtis,

2. You are asking excellent questions. I would like to answer your question 2 first. When we look at the 2 Th 1:7 passage, I think the context shows God's response to our persecution. He promised retribution. He set down this principle in the OT: Deu 32:35 "Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things to come hasten upon them."

3. If the Rapture had occurred in Paul's lifetime, those persecuting the Thessalonians would have been judged seven years later, at the great and notable day of the Lord. Separation from the Lord's presence will be the harsh reality for those who wanted nothing to do with Him in this life.

4. He doesn't want us to take vengeance. That's what He says in Rom 12:17-21: Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

5. The principle is also in The Revelation. Rev 6:9-17 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. 12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

6. Now, let's start looking at 2 Thessalonians 1: 2 Th 1:3-6 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

7. God is just. He will take vengeance on those persecuting the Thessalonians. He will pay back tribulation (qliyin v. 4) to those who are troubling (toi" qlibousin) them.

8. He promised the Thessalonians and us relaxation. 2 Th 1:7-10 "7 (and to give you who are troubled relaxation with us)". This is a parenthesis. God will give relief (anesin) from the afflictions to those being persecuted, when the rapture takes place.

9. But He will give tribulation to those troubling them and us at His 2^nd coming 7 yrs later, "in the revelation of Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified with His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed (in that day)."

• From: Curtis G.
• Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 1:11 AM
• To: bob@biblicalanswers.com
• Subject: II Thess. ii. 3.-"The apostasia"
• Sir,
• In regards to the common error or pre-tribulationists, namley, that the
• word "apostasia" in II Thessalonians ii. 3. means simply "departure";
• I have heard this outlandlish claim by many scholars. But this it is
• simply wholly error.
• The word "apostasia" does not mean simply "departure", it means a
• departure from the true religion. It means "apostasy" in every sense; allow
• me to prove:
• According to Dr. Strong it means "a defection from truth"; according to
• Thayer it means "a falling away; defection; apostasy; in the Bible to wit
• from the true religion." The word occurs in the Holy Writ in Acts xxi. 21.
• But it occurs in the Septuagent (the Bible of Paul) in: Josh. xxii. 22; 2
• Chr. xxix. 19; Jer. ii. 19; and through out Chp. 32. Besides these it occurs
• in the apocrypha in 1 Macc. ii. 15.
• If you look at these Scriptures the sense becomes clear, it means an
• apostasy, not a departure. It is always connected with idolatry, and
• forsaking Yahweh for some hinder god. It never means to simply leave, but
• always to leave, or, stray, from the true religion.
• How do you ingnore all this objective evidence?
• Sincerely,
• Curtis L. Gierman

Answer: (click here to view the answer)

1. Dear Curtis,

2. Thank you for your statement. I can see that your are very sincere about this issue and appreciate your concern about what I believe. However, this is not a doctrine that I have come to without a great amount of research. I ask you, therefore, to bear with me. This is why I believe the apostasia is the departure, the rapture of the church.

3. When I went to my first pastor’s conference in 1973, there was a debate on the time of the rapture between two men who were mid-Acts dispensationalists. Through that debate I saw the importance of a clear understanding of the nature of the mystery in regard to the pretribulation rapture. I esteemed both of these men highly for their theological knowledge and how they conducted themselves in the debate.

4. Recently, I received material from the pastor presenting a post-tribulation, pre-wrath rapture of the church. In one of the articles, he wrote about “he apostasia” which has been translated in most modern translations, apostasy. He definitely believes this word refers to an apostasy just as you do. I applaud him for his emphasis of “The negative side of allowing ‘a fixed theological scheme’ to dictate how Scripture should be interpreted”, and evaluating everything by “serious exegesis of relevant Scripture passages.” We all have our own theological box into which we try to cram all the Scripture on a subject. I suspect that you would admit to that also, Curtis. However, I have studied his presentation and find it lacking in one important aspect. He does not apply the biblical concept of the nature of the mystery to the biblical material about the rapture and the tribulation.

5. Paul had comforted the Thessalonian believers with the hope of the rapture in his first letter. Because of the intensity of persecution, though, confusion had set in. These suffering believers were afraid that the awful day of the Lord had come upon them. Paul learned that his teaching in 1 Th 5:4 had been misinterpreted: “But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.” Therefore, he wrote a second letter for clarification. In order to assure them they were not experiencing the day of the Lord, he gave a guarantee to them in 2 Th 2:3: “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure, [GraecaII font from Logos.] ajpostasiva, comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.”

6. The interpretation of Paul’s promise depends on the meaning of the word ajpostasiva. This noun is compounded from ajpov, “away from,” and stavsi", “position, stance”, from i{sthmi, “stand.” Literally, the act of positioning oneself away is a departure or separation. That’s how I have translated it. In secular Greek, this noun was used to refer to separatist political groups. From this sense, the LXX employed it to denote “rebellion,” especially against God.

7. Since James was familiar with the Greek Old Testament (he cites it in Acts 15:16-18 and Jam 2:23 and 4:6), it is probable that LXX usage underlies his phrase ajpostasiva from Moses” in Acts 21:21. However, his very phrase would be redundant if the concept of religious apostasy were inherent within the noun, for then he would not have defined the ajpostasiva as “from Moses.” From what law other than Moses’ law could the Jew apostasize? While ajpostasiva was used in patristic sources in the technical sense of “apostasy,” the addition by James of the qualifying modifier suggests that in the New Testament, ajpostasiva does not carry that sense by itself.

8. Further, since the Thessalonians were recent converts from paganism, the relevance of LXX usage in Paul’s epistle to them is questionable. These believers would be more familiar with the noun’s Greek heritage. Liddell & Scott (A Greek-English Lexicon, Henry Liddell, Robert Scott, Oxford University Press, 9^th edition, 1940, This impression 1992, pp. 218,219.) classify ajpostasiva as a “later form of ajpostavsi",” and give definitions: “departure, disappearance, distance, departure from, bivou [life].” Moulton and Milligan (The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, James Moulton, George Milligan, Eerdmans Pub. Co., Grand Rapids, Mi, 1950, pp. 68,69.) consider “The old word ajpostavsi" ending equivalent to siva.” Further, while the cognate verb ajfivsthmi sometimes describes a departure from godliness, it is often just the opposite. In Acts 19:9, Paul departs from the unbelieving Jews: “But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed (ajposta;") from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.” In 1 Ti 6:5, Paul instructs Timothy to depart from those who pervert the truth: “useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.” In 2 Ti 2:19, those who name Christ’s name are to depart from iniquity: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

9. My understanding of ajpostasiva is also supported by the syntax. The noun in this case has the definite article: “the departure.” Had he discussed previously with them a specific time of apostasy? We see nothing of the sort in 1 Thessalonians. There is no specific well known apostasy to which Paul was referring back, mentioned in his previous epistle. Therefore, it must be anaphoric, referring to something stated previously in this epistle. To what specific departure did Paul refer in 2 Thessalonians?

10. The departure of the church is pre-eminent in the first epistle. Paul refers to this event and to our subsequent joy in Christ’s presence in 1 Th 1:10, 2:19, 3:12 and 5:9,10, discussing it at length in 4:13-18. Within the immediate context of our noun, he writes of our gathering together with Christ in 2 Th 2:1: “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you.” Therefore, Paul is referring back to a subject in which he has assiduously instructed his readers: “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.”

11. My interpretation of ajpostasiva as “departure” better serves Paul’s purpose in writing this chapter. Those who interpret ajpostasiva as “apostasy” assume that Paul refers to this “apostasy” as a sign to warn the Thessalonians of Christ’s return. However, Paul’s purpose is not to warn them of His impending return, but to reassure them in their persecution that they need not worry about enduring the wrath of God. It is not they who will be left behind. The unbelievers, in 2 Th 2:11,12, who refused the truth will be left behind: “And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

12. Ironically, the chief text cited on behalf of the post-tribulation position, 2 Th 1:7, occurs in the immediately preceding context. “It is just with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you (and to you who are afflicted relaxation with us) at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus.” All agree that this context describes our Lord’s return after the tribulation. However, we must not assume that the saints’ relief and the afflicters’ recompense are simultaneous. The nouns relief and affliction are not co-objects of the verb ajntapovdounai, “repay,” for in what sense is God’s relief a repayment of our afflictions? Afflicting the afflicters represents the Mosaic law of corresponding retribution, but our relief is not a corresponding reward – we all receive it, regardless of the degree of our faithfulness. The clause, “and to you who are afflicted relaxation with us,” is a parenthesis, inserted in a manner almost characteristic of this passage:

13. 2 Th 1:5 which is manifest evidence (an indication of God’s just judgment), that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer.”

14. 2 Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired by all those who believe, (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

15. Clearly Paul is not saying that his testimony “was believed [past tense]” in “that [future] day. When the parentheses in the above examples are deleted, the remaining text is a complete thought. This is also true in verse 7, since “repay affliction to those who afflict you . . . at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus” is a complete thought. Paul inserts the parenthetical reference to the relief He will recompense us for two reasons. First, while the vengeance aspect is important, Paul wants to focus our attention immediately on the positive promise toward us, not only on the negative pronouncement on our enemies. Second, the insertion creates a parallelism: to the afflicters // to you being afflicted: affliction // relief (from affliction).

16. Finally, it is impossible to incorporate the rapture into the second advent because of the nature of the two events. In the rapture, Christ will snatch away the saints for a gathering in the air, leaving behind the unbelievers (2 Th 2:11-13). At the second coming, Christ will separate the unrighteous from among the saints (Mat 13:41 and 24:31). The gathering of the elect takes place only after the Lord has returned and eliminated His Gentile opposition. A post-tribulational, pre-Armageddon rapture is impossible simply because it does not fit into the sequence of events described by our Lord.

17. In conclusion, the rapture does take place before the tribulation. The most important part of the solution is the nature of the mystery. The dispensation of the mystery, as revealed by God through Paul in Ephesians 3, is the most important concept necessary to understand the chronology of the rapture and the tribulation. The nature of the mystery was that it had never been made known before it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. Eph 3:9 showed that explicitly. The nature of the mystery more than anything else, was its secrecy, hidden from the ages in God. It was never written about anywhere in God’s word until it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. The contents of the mystery were never in any prophecy made before the body of Christ which began at Paul’s conversion. In other words, all prophecy made before Paul received the mystery was silent about the people and things of the mystery. That is the nature of the mystery.

18. Again, thanks for your concern.

19. In Christ,

20. Bob Hill