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Question:
Protestant or Catholic Church?
- Thank you for your prompt answer. I think I will need to read it a few more times in order to fully absorb it and understand it. Your response however, prompts another question.
- You obviously have training in the Bible. How am I, a lay person to understand the Bible without training? Obviously I am not opposed to asking questions when I don't understand but that leads to another question. Who should I listen to? I have been raised in as a Protestant, in a strong church family. I have been employed as a youth leader, taught Sunday School, and even served as a missionary. I have been a faithful member of my church for most of my life, but I am beginning to feel disillusioned by the church; not just mine but Protestant churches in general. My husband is going through the same thing. After serving as an elder for our church, teaching Sunday School, and serving on the mission field, he is feeling drawn to the Catholic Church.
- I was not raised to believe that Catholics are heretics or idolaters, as many protestants are. Thus my attraction to Catholicism does not alarm me but it does cause me to question. Since I am not a Bible authority and will always have need to defer to someone better equip in Bible knowledge and understanding, I need to know how to discern godly interpretation and application.
- I don't mean to ramble, but let me briefly explain one aspect Protestantism that has been very disturbing to me. Protestant Churches don't seem to have a very strong belief in Church authority. Many would claim that their authority is God or His Word, but God's voice is heard by many and his word interpreted by all. I am a member of a Presbyterian (USA) church that does have some organizational authority. However, about five years ago there was disagreement within my congregation which led to a church split (the Protestant way). Those that left the church began their own nondenominational church which has subsequently split and led to the founding of yet another nondenominational church. While I see that there are faults with the Catholic church (which are widely recognized by Catholics themselves) there isn't such dissention that they leave the body.
- If you have any insight into my line of questioning I would appreciate your input. By the way, your name is familiar. You are by chance the Bob Hill who is a missionary in Greece are you?
Answer:
(click here to see the answer)
1. I am the Bob Hill who is the pastor of Derby Bible Church in Commerce City, Colorado. Have you been to our web site, biblicalanswers.com ? We have a lot of information on our site that may help you.
2. I'm surprised that you and your husband are feeling drawn to the Catholic Church. Although I believe there are many who believe in Christ for the remission of their sins in the Catholic Church, the church itself believes you have to confess your sins to have them forgiven. According to Acts 16:30,31, when the jailor asked Paul and Silas what he had to do to be saved, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."
3. The Catholic Church has splits, also. We have some in Colorado. The churches that were formed after the split even call themselves Catholic, but they are not recognized by the Pope. There is actually a lot of dissension in the Catholic Church.
4. We also must realize that everyone who believes in Christ as his savior is baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ according to Romans 6. Rom 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
5. Those of us who have trusted Christ as our savior have been baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ - into His church. This is the only church that really counts. In it are people from all kinds of earthly churches who have trusted Christ as their savior. Since Christ is the head of the church, He is the only one we need to please.
6. We must realize from Rom 3:21-26 that God's righteousness for us is through faith: 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
7. The Catholic Church is strong on doing good works going to confession, and saying the rosary to obtain salvation, along with belief. But in Rom 5:1,2 it says, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
8. Further on in that chapter, it shows that Christ died in our place: Rom 5:6-9 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
9. In Romans 6:22,23, we find that we are freed from sin when we trust in Christ as our savior. Rom 6:22-23 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Question:
Why not join the Catholic church?
- I am familiar with the scripture you included in your reply. However, I am still in a quandary. How does one determine which Bible authorities to defer to? Having experienced the ugliness of a church split, I have seen what disagreement regarding scripture can lead to. I know many people who love Jesus but interpret scripture differently and determine that these differences are irreconcilable within a congregation. The result is a split, a divorce if you will, of the church.
- There are books that vehemently, and with Biblical "authority", argue the evils of the Catholic Church. Likewise I can find books that argue with the same intensity the evils of the Protestant Church. Both sides of the story supported by scripture.
- Nicole Hocker Glentzer
Answer:
(click here to see the answer)
1. Dear Nicole,
2. We can find things wrong with every individual church, because every church is made up of imperfect humans. We all have problems. There is an old adage, "If you find a perfect church, don't join it, you'll ruin it." That's because we are imperfect, and if we joined it, it would no longer be perfect.
3. I'm talking about whether a church has a vast majority of what they believe, right. That is what you have to do. You have to study the Bible to see what you believe the Bible is saying about the doctrine different churches teach. That's what our web site is all about. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is wrong because it teaches theology that the Bible disagrees with. For instance, the Bible says there is one mediator between God and man, the man, Christ Jesus. The Catholic church believes that Mary is a mediatrix as well. That is not true. Here's what it says: 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (NKJV)
4. In Christ,
5. Bob Hill
Question:
is this Catholic saved?
- Bob,
- Do you think that Bob Joyce is saved? He believes in the resurrection, but I don't know if he has repented for his sins and asked Christ to forgive him. Is just believing in the resurrection enough? I always thought that we must repent and accept Christ as our Savior. Maybe I am being really basic here, but I always wonder if Catholics are saved.
- Dan
Answer:
(click here to see the answer)
1. Dear Dan,
2. It is hard to tell for sure whether he is saved, but while reading a lot of what he has written, it seems that he has trusted Christ as his Savior and not relied on works for salvation. Just because he also believes in a lot of aberrant theology doesn’t mean he is saved. As far as repentance is concerned, although we don’t have to make repentance part of the presentation of the gospel in the dispensation of grace, it is implied. Paul used the term when he was preaching on the Areopagus. Because Israel had left God, a turning back to Him, repentance, was demanded.
3. What do you think about Bob?
4. In Christ,
5. Bob Hill
Question:
Where does it say in the Bible that believers are saints?
- I would like your opinion as to why most non catholics (christian believers) do not give more attention to the saints, and where in the bible does it say that believers are saints.....catholic friends are always asking me these kind of questions.
- Thank You
Answer:
(click here to see the answer)
1. We give no attention to the saints because we true Christians are all saints. There have been billions of saints since Christ died for our sins and was resurrected because of our justification. This is shown in Romans 4:23-25 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
2. Anyone who has really believed in Jesus Christ as his savior is a saint. The Bible shows us that in many places. I will list a few:
3. Philippians 4:21,22 "Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren who are with me greet you. 22 All the saints greet you, but especially those who are of Caesar's household."
4. Romans 1:7 "To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." The word, called, is an adjective modifying saints. It is not a verb - called to be saints.
5. Romans 15:25-27 But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints. 26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.
6. 1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints. The word, called, is an adjective modifying saints.
7. Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.
8. Eph 3:8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ
9. Eph 3:17-19 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height -- 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
10. Eph 4:11-13 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ
11. Eph 5:3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints.
12. Colossians 1:1,2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse.
13. Col 1:24-26 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
14. A saint because I'm in Christ,
15. Bob Hill
Question: Catholic problems with dispensationalism #9
- Dear Keith,
- Your Catholic friend says
- 9) Dispesationalism defies the many prophecies that the New Covenant of Christ would never cease, and would remain. Historically, it is a fact that none of the Christians, until the 1800's believed this interpretation of Scripture. (See Isaiah; Mat. 16; "I will be with you always".)
Answer: (click here to see the answer)
1. 9) Dispensationalism shows that a new dispensation started with the Apostle Paul:
2. Col 1:24-29 I now rejoice in sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions for Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to complete the (canon of) word of God (for this dispensation, which is also called), 26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To whom God willed to make known what is the glorious wealth of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this [end] I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.
3. This new dispensation replaced the old one until the rapture, catching up, of the body of Christ takes place. After the rapture, God's prophetic program with Israel will be taken up again, the long promised tribulation will take place and the millennial kingdom will be put in place. Many of the prophecies will be fulfilled in those events. The rest of the prophecies that will be fulfilled, will happen in the eternal kingdom on earth.
4. This is the end of your list, Keith. Let me know if you have any other questions.
5. In Christ,
6. Bob Hill
Question: Catholic problems with dispensationalism #8
- Dear Keith,
- Your Catholic friend says
- 8) Dispensational ism is an attempt to reconcile protestant reliance on their new interpretation of Paul, with how this contradicts the 12 apostles and the early church fathers. It does this by attempting to divide Paul from the rest of the church, under a new "dispensation". Ye it was the 12 apostles who were ordered by Christ to "teach ALL nations". Therefore the Gospel given the 12 was for "ALL nations".
Answer: (click here to see the answer)
- My answer
- 8) There have been writings from various parts of the ancient world that have survived the suppression of the Catholic. Some of these show early dispensational teachings, but legalism, works for salvation and indulgences were pervasive up to the time of the Reformation.
- The 12 were told to go only to Israel at first, but when the 11 were sent out after the resurrection, they were to go with a message of belief and water baptism for the remission of sins.
- God raised up the Apostle Paul with a new dispensation called the mystery and grace. This dispensation had a gospel of faith plus nothing, for salvation.
- In Christ,
- Bob Hill
Question: Catholic problems with dispensationalism #7
- Dear Keith,
- Your Catholic friend says Dispensationalism
- 7)Assumes that the apostasy referred to and prophesied by Paul, was anti-dispensational. Yet other heresis arose(Arianism, Nestorism, Zorastrianism, Gnosicism, manicheanism, ect.) which fulfill this prophesy.
Answer: (click here to see the answer)
1. My answer is (7)
2. We do not assume that the apostasy was only the emphasis on the circumcision gospel, but among others, Arianism, Nestorianism, Zoroastrianism, Gnosticism, Manichaeism (Augustine's 7 year stint sure influenced the Catholic church.) and Catholicism.
3. In Christ,
4. Bob Hill
Question: Catholic problems with dispensationalism #6
- Dear Keith,
- Your Catholic friend says Dispensationalism
- 6) Believes that those who were directly taught by the Apostles were to corrupt the doctrine of Paul with their "confusion" just 40 years later. However modern dispensationalists. with 2000 years separating them, and with far greater cultural and linguistic differences, were able to interpret Paul much more accurately.
Answer: (click here to see the answer)
1. My answer for (6) is
2. Judaizers who were zealous for the Law and believed Gentiles had to be circumcised and water baptized in order to be saved were the ones who attempted, and to a great extent, succeeded in corrupting the gospel of grace that Christ gave directly to Paul:
3. Gal 1:11,12,15-18 (NKJV) But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.
4. 2,000 years later, we can read the Greek text and see that Catholicism was the result of heresy creeping into the church rapidly. Only lately has the wrong exaltation of Mary and other erroneous doctrines been promulgated.
5. I still believe that there are many Catholics whom I have met who have trusted Christ as their Savior. About half of my congregation are X-Catholics. They are saved, and are sure of their salvation based on the security they have in Christ.
6. In Christ,
7. Bob Hill
Question: Catholic problems with dispensationalism #5
- Dear Keith,
- Your Catholic friend says Dispensationalism
- 5) Relies upon a defective King James translation regarding the idea contained in the Greek text; this translation was created by non-dispensationalists, and is generally rejected by the great majority of Protestant and catholic translations.
Answer: (click here to see the answer)
1. Here is my answer:
2. 5) Unfortunately, your Catholic friend does not know what he is talking about at all concerning Greek texts and English translations. Erasmus, a Catholic scholar published the first Greek New Testament from 6 manuscripts. Stephanus - Robert Estienne, used Erasmus' & Complutension & 15 other mss for his text. Elzevir - was based on Stephanus & Beza. The 1633 edition became standard and became known as the Textus Receptus=Received Text. The Geneva Bible and the KJV were translated from this text. These days, there are 3 main texts that exist as a result of textual criticism. The Critical Text is the most popular, but it still is founded on some of the faulty, and disproved principles of Westcott and Hort. Then, there is the Textus Receptus I just explained since it was the oldest published Greek text. I believe this text is inferior to the Majority Text, which is the result of the majority of the readings of all the extant manuscripts of the New Testament. No Bible has been translated from this text, but the NKJV has marginal notes referring to it and the Critical Text. The Critical Text is represented by, at least, the NIV, NAS, NRSV, RSV, Living Bible, NLT, CEV, ASV. Since dispensationalists I know, use all of these except the RSV & NRSV, your friend is totally wrong. I personally use the NKJV but check it with the Greek Majority Text.
3. In Christ,
4. Bob Hill
Question: Catholic problems with dispensationalism #4
- Dear Keith,
- Your Catholic friend says Dispensationalism
- 4) Re-defines the early church fathers into heretics and apostates; they become precursers to the anti-Christ instead of holy saints who died for Christ.("Greater love hath no man than that he lay down his life for another")
Answer: (click here to see the answer)
1. Here is my answer:
2. 4) He is right on the money in this statement. Not only do we state that, but most conservative evangelicals also do. The Apostle Paul was fighting the problem of apostasy during his whole apostleship. In 2 Ti 1:13-16 Paul wrote, "Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. 15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes." Paul referred to the Judaizers in this way, often, right in his first epistle, Galatians, to the end of his ministry.
3. In Galatians, he wrote (I'll quote from 3 different translations that I agree with.):
4. KJV But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter
5. YLT but, on the contrary, having seen that I have been entrusted with the good news of the uncircumcision, as Peter with that of the circumcision
6. ASV but contrariwise, when they saw that I had been intrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, even as Peter with the gospel of the circumcision
7. Peter was given a gospel different from Paul's, and the apostasy was turning back to the gospel of the circumcision that had become null and void for the dispensation of grace that was given to Paul.
8. Paul had to tell them, privately, about the gospel that was given to him directly by the risen Christ. Notice what Paul had to do because there was opposition to the gospel the Lord had given to him.
9. Gal 2:1,2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, [He had to communicate the gospel that he preached, to them privately, because the Judaizers were against it.] but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.
10. We see that Paul didn't yield for an hour on this issue and wouldn't let Titus get circumcised.
11. Gal 2:3-5 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
12. That's why we should stand for the truth diligently. Apostasy set in very quickly in the church. They were instructed to divide the gospel given to Paul by Christ from the gospel that had been given to Peter for Israel after Israel had been set aside.
13. 2 Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
14. Eph 3:8,9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.
15. He wrote again in 2 Tim 2:15-17, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. [That's a dispensational understanding of the word of God.] 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort." He was inspired to right of this apostasy again in 2 Tim 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
16. The earliest extra biblical writers already rejected the truth that Christ gave to Paul about baptism. They maintained a person had to be baptized to be saved. Paul said he was not sent to baptize like the 12 were. Baptism had passed away by the time Paul wrote his 1^st epistle to the Corinthians.
17. In Christ,
18. Bob Hill
Question: Catholic problems with dispensationalism #3
- Dear Bob,
- Thank you so much for all of your help in past emails. I have been studying the catholic church even more intensely since our last email. And I'll have to be honest, I am confused! I have in no way been able to defend the ideas that I have thought to be true, and with honest reasoning I haven't heard any one else either. After long discutions with this catholic teacher we have come to a point where we both decided to write down a list of problems that we have seen with each others theology, and then we have agreed to honestly consider each others qualms. So i figure two minds are better than one(plus your a heck of a lot smarter than me) and I would like to share with you his "Problems With Dispensational ism"
- 3) Assumes that a doctrine “discovered” 150 years ago which is FUNDAMENTAL to the definition of Christianity, has not been known throughout the history of the previous 1800 years of Christianity.
Answer: (click here to see the answer)
1. 3) The earliest church fathers were, indeed, apostates when it comes to the message of salvation. Paul wrote about that himself in 2 Tim 1:13-16 “Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed to you (Paul committed it to Timothy. This was the mystery that was given only to Paul, who then explained it to others. Gal 1&2.), keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. 15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
2. One of the distinctives of Dispensational Theology is the rapture. Ephraem the Syrian or Pseudo-Ephraem wrote about this in the 4^th century. “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” Ephraem the Syrian or Pseudo-Ephraem, On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World, Around A.D. 373. Grant R. Jeffrey in When the Trumpet Sounds, Ed. Thomas Ice & Timothy Demy, Eugene, Harvest House Pub., p. 108.
3. In Christ,
4. Bob
Question: Catholic problems with dispensationalism #2
- Fri, 1 Jun 2001
- Subject: Catholic problems with dispensationalism
- Dear Bob,
- Thank you so much for all of your help in past emails. I have been studying the catholic church even more intensely since our last email. And I'll have to be honest, I am confused! I have in no way been able to defend the ideas that I have thought to be true, and with honest reasoning I haven't heard any one else either. After long discutions with this catholic teacher we have come to a point where we both decided to write down a list of problems that we have seen with each others theology, and then we have agreed to honestly consider each others qualms. So i figure two minds are better than one(plus your a heck of a lot smarter than me) and I would like to share with you his "Problems With Dispensational ism"
- 2)Relies on the idea that Paul was not subject to the Apostles and Peter-defies council of Jerusalem
Answer: (click here to see the answer)
1. Dear Keith,
2. 2) The Jerusalem council of Acts 15 was called because of Judaizers. As you know, Judaizers is another name for those of the circumcision party. They were associated with James, but some took a more extreme position than James (Acts 15:24-29; 21:25). The uncircumcision gospel that Christ gave directly to Paul and the circumcision gospel that Christ had given to Peter, contain common elements. Both affirm that salvation is by God’s grace, that Christ died, was buried, and was raised for justification. Both depend on the faithfulness of Christ and His blood as the means God uses to provide righteousness for those who believe. Both require faith on the part of the individual in order to receive the judicial edict of justification. The difference between the two gospels lies in the respective ways in which God requires the individual’s faith to be expressed. The circumcision gospel declared a true belief in Christ, baptism, circumcision, law keeping, and endurance were necessary (Mat 10:22; Acts 2:38; 21:20,21; Jam 2:8-24; John 15:6). The uncircumcision gospel, called Paul’s gospel, declared that only a true belief in the Lord Jesus Christ was necessary for salvation (Acts 13:38,39; 16:31).
3. It is important to investigate the word circumcision. Stephen mentions a covenant of circumcision in his bold discourse before the Sanhedrin (Acts 7:8). What does “covenant of circumcision” mean? Is it a covenant to the circumcision? Is it a covenant belonging to the circumcision? Or is it about circumcision, sealed by circumcision, or pertaining to circumcision? We can quickly rule out that it was to someone who was circumcised since Abraham was circumcised only as a result of the covenant (Gen 17:9-27). Therefore, we see that the covenant contains news about circumcision. In fact, circumcision was made a necessary condition for sharing in the covenant blessings. We may then conclude that the circumcision covenant was about blessings to Abraham and his descendants and the conditions his circumcised descendants would have to keep to be included in the blessings. If this is true, the circumcision gospel would be good news about the circumcision people and would be contrasted with the good news of those who were not circumcised.
4. Who were those “of the circumcision”? How should we, whether Catholic or Dispensationalist, view them? In Acts 10:45, they were the believing Jews who came with Peter. But in Acts 11:2 they were the ones who contended with Peter because he “went in to uncircumcised men and ate with them.” These were silenced only after Peter told them that the Holy Spirit had fallen on the Gentiles. From both of these accounts we can see that the circumcision were Jews who held separatist beliefs because of the covenant of circumcision.
5. Paul declares Abraham a father in Romans 4. He is the father of the uncircumcised because he was justified by faith when he was uncircumcised. Then, after he was circumcised, he became the father of all who were not only circumcised but walked in the same kind of faith that Abraham had when he was uncircumcised. We can definitely say that he would not have been the father of circumcision if he himself had not been circumcised. But further, after he was circumcised, James used him as the prime example of the faith-works method required by God under the circumcision covenant for justification. James cited the incident of Genesis 22, which was after Abraham’s circumcision.
6. Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God, himself was a minister of the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God, in order that He might confirm the promises of the fathers (Rom 15:8). He preached the gospel of the kingdom according to Matthew 4:17. Since He was a minister of the circumcision, the content of the gospel of the kingdom would concern the promises made to the fathers of Israel. The nouns, “promise” and gospel, are derived from the same root. The confirmation of the ancient promises certainly was good news, to the Jews. Therefore He was ministering the good news of circumcision. This “gospel of the circumcision” was an extension of the original promises and conditions of the “covenant of circumcision” for the age to come. Among other things, it contained the conditions the circumcision covenant people had to perform as mentioned by John in Matthew 3:1-11. It also promised a new covenant relationship with God and eschatological blessings for Israel.
7. Although Peter was the apostle to whom the gospel of circumcision was given (Gal 2:7), he was afraid of the circumcision believers. They were still separatists. Peter had been eating with “unclean” Gentiles. When they came to Antioch, “he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision” (Gal 2:12). Why did he fear them? They taught that circumcision and all its ramifications were necessary for salvation (Acts 15:24; 21:20,21) along with faith in Jesus as the Messiah. They truly taught a gospel of circumcision, a gospel including the requirements of circumcision and law keeping, just as those of the circumcision did in Acts 15:1.
8. According to Colossians 4:10,11, Mark and Jesus who is called Justus were the only ones of the circumcision at that time who were fellow workers with Paul. In contrast to most who were of the circumcision, these believers of the circumcision were a comfort to Paul. Titus 1:10,11 shows us Paul’s evaluation of this group as a whole, “For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.” There may have been a few who comforted, but most outside of Jerusalem were subversive, against the uncircumcision gospel.
9. Therefore, we see that those “of the circumcision” can do good or evil. It depended on what they taught, whom they taught, and where they taught. If they taught their circumcision gospel in Antioch or Galatia (Acts 15:1; Gal 1:6-9; 3:1-5; 5:1-12; 6:12,13) they would be accursed. If they taught it to Jews in Jerusalem it was all right. When they were with Paul they had to conform to his gospel.
10. Galatians was written to turn them from the gospel associated with “law works” of the “flesh” (3:2-5) back to Paul’s gospel. This gospel was written to them explicitly in 2:16. Justification by faith is the central theme of the entire epistle. It showed that the “different gospel which is not another of the same rank” as Paul’s, was a message of circumcision and law keeping. Galatians 5:2-5 shows how seriously Paul viewed this circumcision and law gospel which they had received (1:8,9). He wonders aloud, “If I am still proclaiming circumcision why am I still being persecuted?” (5:11). Now let me ask you this: if he did proclaim circumcision as a requirement of salvation, would that be called the gospel of the circumcision? We would be hard pressed if we called it anything else. As all the grammarians have written, the genitive qualifies the other noun in an adjectival manner. So we would have to call such a gospel Paul would be proclaiming, the circumcision gospel, or the gospel of the circumcision. Finally, approaching the conclusion of the epistle, he reiterates once more that circumcision and uncircumcision are of no value in Christ Jesus. What matters is the uniqueness of the new creation in Christ. In Christ there is no distinction or prejudice. Paul explained this fundamental part of the mystery thoroughly in Ephesians 2 and 3.
11. Now we must consider the immediate historical context of the Jerusalem council. In Galatians 2, we see that Paul had taken uncircumcised Titus with him. He went to Jerusalem “by revelation.” We may infer that the purpose was to present to them the gospel which he proclaimed among the Gentiles. If his gospel was the same as the gospel they proclaimed, why did he feel compelled to present it to them? Why was he compelled to tell them what gospel he preached among the Gentiles “privately” so his ministry would not turn out to be empty? He wanted to be sure the truth of the gospel Christ gave him would remain with the Galatians (2:5).
12. In private, then in the council session, instead of deferring to Peter and the rest of the elders, he was able to add to “those who seemed to be something” (Gal 2:6,7) while the Holy Spirit “revealed” (Eph 3:5) that it was true. What was set before them? What was added to (their knowledge)? They saw that Christ had committed to Paul a different gospel, not the same message that He had given Peter (Gal 2:7). Paul had an uncircumcision gospel; Peter had a circumcision gospel. I have proved in by book, The Big Difference, that this is a completely valid rendering of the two genitives, gospel of uncircumcision and gospel of circumcision.
13. What is meant by the uncircumcision gospel? According to Romans 4, a gospel was preached to Abraham while he was uncircumcised. All he had to do was believe, and his faith was imputed to him for righteousness (Gen 12:3; 15:6; Rom 4:1-12). Galatians 3:8 shows us that this gospel was preached to Abraham with Gentile salvation in mind. In the following chapters we will examine the basis for the circumcision gospel and the areas where it differs from Paul’s uncircumcision gospel.
14. Paul was not subservient to the council, but he wanted their agreement so there wouldn’t be a hassle when he continued his ministry. Later, when Peter came down to Damascus, Paul rebuked him before all. Why? Peter was wrong. Gal 2:1-17 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 6 But from those who seemed to be something--whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man--for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. 11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Question: Catholic problems with dispensationalism #1
- Fri, 1 Jun 2001
- Subject:
- Dear Bob,
- Thank you so much for all of your help in past emails. I have been studying the catholic church even more intensely since our last email. And I'll have to be honest, I am confused! I have in no way been able to defend the ideas that I have thought to be true, and with honest reasoning I haven't heard any one else either. After long discutions with this catholic teacher we have come to a point where we both decided to write down a list of problems that we have seen with each others theology, and then we have agreed to honestly consider each others qualms. So i figure two minds are better than one(plus your a heck of a lot smarter than me) and I would like to share with you his "Problems With Dispensational ism"
- 1) Relies on the authority of the catholic bishops to establish a true canon of Scriptures.

Answer: (click here to see the answer)
1. Dear Keith,
2. The biggest problem with Catholicism is their dependence on church tradition rather than the Bible.
3. 1) We do not rely on Catholic bishops to establish the canon of the Scriptures. The Bible as we know it was already accepted long before the councils of Hippo and Carthage. The reason that we modern protestants did not accept the apocrypha was that the Jews had not accepted them into the OT canon. In the NT, the closest book to being included, that wasn’t included, was 1 Clement. Look up ch. XXV and read about the resurrection of the Phoenix bird every 500 years. That kind of drivel did not get into the Bible because the Holy Spirit led the early church (Not Roman Catholic, in spite of their assertions.) to not include this kind of literature. Also read ch. LVIII for works for salvation, but not in the same vein as the Circumcision epistles. Also read the Acts of Thecla.
4. Since the canon existed from the time an inspired book was written, we can see it was accepted by the leading of the Holy Spirit as believers saw the inherent spiritual value of each book. The inspired books were already there when the councils ratified them. The 27 books are so outstanding in their intrinsic value and completely homogeneous as circumcision writings or uncircumcision (Paul’s) writings. Their external testimonials are extraordinary, especially when you consider those documents which were closest to being included.
5. I recommend you get a hold of some books on canonicity. There’s one by F.F. Bruce, The Canon of Scripture, IVP and one by L. McDonald, The Formation of the Christian Biblical Canon, Hendrickson.